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	<title>Comments on: Summitry</title>
	<link>http://www.makingopportunityaffordable.org/2005/10/31/summitry/</link>
	<description>A Discussion on the Rising Costs of Higher Education</description>
	<pubDate>Fri,  8 Aug 2008 18:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Chris Rasmussen</title>
		<link>http://www.makingopportunityaffordable.org/2005/10/31/summitry/#comment-17</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Rasmussen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 21:54:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.makingopportunityaffordable.org/2005/10/31/summitry/#comment-17</guid>
		<description>I attended the College Costs summit in Washington and also read Luminaâ€™s Course Corrections publication.  While I am wholeheartedly in support of Lumina's efforts to facilitate a national dialogue on the crisis of college costs, I was most struck by the near absence of any ideas or suggestions that represented "out of the box" thinking or dared to address any of the sacred cows in higher education.  I believe that we are beyond the point where we can tinker around the edges to save a little bit of money here and a little bit of money there (which, as David Breneman pointed out, rarely gets passed along to students in the form of price reduction).  Rather, we need radical solutions to fix what is essentially a broken business model.  That means cutting the cost of providing higher education by 30% or more.  And you can't do this without addressing what are by far the two areas of highest cost in the enterprise: labor and capital.

On a more specific note, I tend to agree generally with Michael Barr, and had the same reaction when I read or heard suggestions that individuals are able to shorten their time to degree by earning college credits while in high school.  I too wondered about the extent to which students actually graduate early and save money in the process.  

In my past experience as a college administrator, it was unusual to see a student who entered college with a semester or a year's worth of college credits graduate "early."  In some cases, and for whatever reasons, the credits that students earned in high school did not apply to the degree or program they chose to pursue at the postsecondary level.  Or, the credits fulfilled general education requirements but the sequencing of courses in their chosen major required them to spend the same number of semesters on campus as they would have otherwise.

More frequently, rather than use their advanced status as an opportunity to reduce the total number of credits they needed to earn to graduate, students instead enrolled in more advanced courses, testing out of beginning levels in foreign language, mathematics, etc. but studying at more advanced levels in their junior or senior year.  Or, students took advantage of the opportunity to take a broader set of electives, or were able to participate in overseas or some other form of off-site study.  In this sense, earning credits in high school contributed to a more enriched educational experience at the college level, but it didn't reduce their overall costs.

Most powerful, however, seemed to be the phenomenon of students choosing to stay in college for social and lifestyle reasons.  Why give up friends, organizations, social opportunities, and general lifestyle in order to start working when one has his or her whole life to work?  

John Sweeney suggested that "students that are able to successfully take college courses during their high school years are the ones finishing college in four years or less."  I would argue that students who are able to take college courses during high school are the ones for whom college is something that must be lived for four years or more.  Before the notion that advanced college credit programs save students money becomes normalized in the national dialogue, I suggest that we conduct research that provides a greater base of evidence to prove (or disprove) this point.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I attended the College Costs summit in Washington and also read Luminaâ€™s Course Corrections publication.  While I am wholeheartedly in support of Lumina&#8217;s efforts to facilitate a national dialogue on the crisis of college costs, I was most struck by the near absence of any ideas or suggestions that represented &#8220;out of the box&#8221; thinking or dared to address any of the sacred cows in higher education.  I believe that we are beyond the point where we can tinker around the edges to save a little bit of money here and a little bit of money there (which, as David Breneman pointed out, rarely gets passed along to students in the form of price reduction).  Rather, we need radical solutions to fix what is essentially a broken business model.  That means cutting the cost of providing higher education by 30% or more.  And you can&#8217;t do this without addressing what are by far the two areas of highest cost in the enterprise: labor and capital.</p>
<p>On a more specific note, I tend to agree generally with Michael Barr, and had the same reaction when I read or heard suggestions that individuals are able to shorten their time to degree by earning college credits while in high school.  I too wondered about the extent to which students actually graduate early and save money in the process.  </p>
<p>In my past experience as a college administrator, it was unusual to see a student who entered college with a semester or a year&#8217;s worth of college credits graduate &#8220;early.&#8221;  In some cases, and for whatever reasons, the credits that students earned in high school did not apply to the degree or program they chose to pursue at the postsecondary level.  Or, the credits fulfilled general education requirements but the sequencing of courses in their chosen major required them to spend the same number of semesters on campus as they would have otherwise.</p>
<p>More frequently, rather than use their advanced status as an opportunity to reduce the total number of credits they needed to earn to graduate, students instead enrolled in more advanced courses, testing out of beginning levels in foreign language, mathematics, etc. but studying at more advanced levels in their junior or senior year.  Or, students took advantage of the opportunity to take a broader set of electives, or were able to participate in overseas or some other form of off-site study.  In this sense, earning credits in high school contributed to a more enriched educational experience at the college level, but it didn&#8217;t reduce their overall costs.</p>
<p>Most powerful, however, seemed to be the phenomenon of students choosing to stay in college for social and lifestyle reasons.  Why give up friends, organizations, social opportunities, and general lifestyle in order to start working when one has his or her whole life to work?  </p>
<p>John Sweeney suggested that &#8220;students that are able to successfully take college courses during their high school years are the ones finishing college in four years or less.&#8221;  I would argue that students who are able to take college courses during high school are the ones for whom college is something that must be lived for four years or more.  Before the notion that advanced college credit programs save students money becomes normalized in the national dialogue, I suggest that we conduct research that provides a greater base of evidence to prove (or disprove) this point.</p>
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		<title>By: John Sweeney</title>
		<link>http://www.makingopportunityaffordable.org/2005/10/31/summitry/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>John Sweeney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2005 13:36:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.makingopportunityaffordable.org/2005/10/31/summitry/#comment-15</guid>
		<description>Students that are able to successfully take college courses during their high school years are the ones finishing college in four years or less.  The students that take longer to finish college would have trouble taking college courses in high school.  High schools should focus on doing their job better.  States should increase the required high school credits in math, science and social studies/history.  High school students are spending too much time with electives and not enough with the types of courses that lead to success in college.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Students that are able to successfully take college courses during their high school years are the ones finishing college in four years or less.  The students that take longer to finish college would have trouble taking college courses in high school.  High schools should focus on doing their job better.  States should increase the required high school credits in math, science and social studies/history.  High school students are spending too much time with electives and not enough with the types of courses that lead to success in college.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Barr</title>
		<link>http://www.makingopportunityaffordable.org/2005/10/31/summitry/#comment-13</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Barr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.makingopportunityaffordable.org/2005/10/31/summitry/#comment-13</guid>
		<description>This is just a comment on your "Course Corrections" publication.
Specifically, I have an issue with the section by Ms. Taff.

I recognize she is summarizing unpublished papers, so these may not be her words.  However, in her section on dual enrollment, she posits, "the more college credit is earned while the student is in high school, the less time and money he or she must spend on campus as a college student."  This is not necessarily the case and it is one of the most significant misconceptions about dual enrollment programs.  I believe the most responsible way to report dual enrollment benefits is to say there is "potential" for savings through reduced time and cost.  

What much new research shows is that there are social and attitudinal adjustments dually enrolled students need to make in order to begin to compete with their peers academically.  Along the way, some researchers have identified substandard graduation rates and poor graduation efficiency rates (that they take significantly more credits than other students transferring with similar credit).  Of course, if students don't graduate or if they take much longer to graduate, that impacts cost - both in a literal monetary sense or cost in a broader common-good interpretation if they fail to achieve a degree.

I'm not against dual enrollment programs, but participation in a program like dual enrollment or others of similar ilk has implications that are far more complex than what is typically reported.  I believe it is a far greater service to students and parents to disclose full information before we set them off on a pie-in-the-sky college savings endeavor.

With that said, I do think your publication is impressive, comprehensive, and extremely important.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is just a comment on your &#8220;Course Corrections&#8221; publication.<br />
Specifically, I have an issue with the section by Ms. Taff.</p>
<p>I recognize she is summarizing unpublished papers, so these may not be her words.  However, in her section on dual enrollment, she posits, &#8220;the more college credit is earned while the student is in high school, the less time and money he or she must spend on campus as a college student.&#8221;  This is not necessarily the case and it is one of the most significant misconceptions about dual enrollment programs.  I believe the most responsible way to report dual enrollment benefits is to say there is &#8220;potential&#8221; for savings through reduced time and cost.  </p>
<p>What much new research shows is that there are social and attitudinal adjustments dually enrolled students need to make in order to begin to compete with their peers academically.  Along the way, some researchers have identified substandard graduation rates and poor graduation efficiency rates (that they take significantly more credits than other students transferring with similar credit).  Of course, if students don&#8217;t graduate or if they take much longer to graduate, that impacts cost - both in a literal monetary sense or cost in a broader common-good interpretation if they fail to achieve a degree.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not against dual enrollment programs, but participation in a program like dual enrollment or others of similar ilk has implications that are far more complex than what is typically reported.  I believe it is a far greater service to students and parents to disclose full information before we set them off on a pie-in-the-sky college savings endeavor.</p>
<p>With that said, I do think your publication is impressive, comprehensive, and extremely important.</p>
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